White kids' racism is a symptom of white racial respectability politics 

White teenagers think it's acceptable to "act out" with symbols of hate because they have absorbed the white American value that racial equality is a matter of respectability, not morality. Because white ppl's idea of racial harmony is so divorced from moral values but consists of injunctions for politeness (don't say slurs etc.) their children break these injunctions for simple shock value without caring who they're hurting.

White respectability, moral selfhood, dehumanization 

This is how white people caught in racist actions can say--and believe!--that they are "good people," because to them racism is a matter of politeness, not morality. They can't be bad people for a faux pas, can they? Never mind that what they did are acts of harassment, threats, and terror against POCs & Jewish ppl. White racial respectability politics are premised on erasing the marginalized as human beings whose treatment is a moral concern.

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White respectability, moral selfhood, dehumanization 

@lj_writes I consider teenagers to be little else than budding sociopaths and that's partially NOT their fault due to just simple biology and emotional & mental development at their stage of life BUT there are also societal levels of ignorance that underestimate and ignore how SERIOUSLY deranged and unstable to teenage mind can be. I see and read DAILY about behaviors from teens that are early stages of psychopathy and considered "acceptable"

White respectability, moral selfhood, dehumanization 

@lj_writes Have you ever read those stories about the systematic, PLANNED, slow emotional psychological torture and daily torment that is acted out by groups of teenagers upon some other student (online and off) for the SOLE PURPOSE of trying to get that person to commit suicide ... ? I don't see anyone going to jail for such actions ... it's just called "bullying" ...

Teenage sociopathy 

@TheWebRecluse yeah it's disturbing, and the level of, just, sheer evil is hard to wrap my head around particularly in people who are still so young.

Teenage sociopathy 

@lj_writes Well in the case of teenagers is not evil it's actual mental illness ... though no one, including the psychiatric profession will ever diagnose that in a teen without significant incidents to back it up. Strategic death planning and misery creation I guess isn't enough to claim that even when it results in someones death. As such teens grow into adults ... then you have a whole other problem because their mental illness was never addressed when it should have been.

Teenage sociopathy 

@lj_writes I think you get "evil" when mental illness is ALLOWED to flourish in someone who is both aware of it and intentionally chooses to live a life of covering it up in order to continue to exist in a place where they choose darkness over light. I'm not talking about actual sick people who are struggling to become well or are seeking help and not getting it etc. I'm talking about those who KNOW and DONT CARE and live according to the rules and laws of their broken mind.

Teenage sociopathy; mental illness 

@TheWebRecluse Yup, plenty of mentally ill people choose to use other people as outlets and relief for their symptoms and it's the choice that makes them so toxic, not the illness. My father is abusive and controlling to try to alleviate his anxiety and trauma--he fully admits it--and refuses to get therapy no matter how I beg him, so I know how that works.

Teenage sociopathy; mental illness 

@lj_writes Then you know what evil is and you know it can't do much of anything to change it. It's a terrible thing to be a victim of someone elses evil ...

Teenage sociopathy; mental illness 

@TheWebRecluse I don't think there's anything others can do to change someone who made their choices. Change is theoretically possible, but only if the person chooses to change and commits to it. The best the rest of us can do with someone who is committed to hurting others is protect ourselves. That's my life story, too, having tried to change my dad for 10+ years before I reluctantly realized I needed to minimize contact with him and keep my distance.

illness, abuse 

@lj_writes @TheWebRecluse Personally, I don't blame my parents or their mental health for their ab-s-ve behavior.
I blame the patriarchal system that enabled their behavior and categorizes children as property-like, just like women are "traditionally" expected to become the property of their husbands when they're no longer owned by their father.
There are no "good" or "stable" parents, only "less sh-tty" or "less ab-s-ve" ones, imo.
I'm still avoiding my parents like hell, though.

illness, abuse 

@Cap @lj_writes I'd agree but that's just way too much of a cop out ... "blaming the system" ... the system is broken sure ... but that doesn't remove responsibility from individual adults as far as how to treat their children. People make their own choices ... like racists, abusers, rapists, pedos, and all the others within this system you mention ... which is really just "the world we live in". We're all in this system but we all have choices we can make within it.

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illness, abuse 

@TheWebRecluse @lj_writes Whether we blame systemic injustice or "flourishing" mental illness has nothing to do with removing responsibility, imo.

The difference is that mentally ill people are a marginalized group that is subjected to discrimination (sanism) and actually LESS likely to commit violence... while "people with power" explains almost every instance of unjustified violence.

Violence against children, women, poc etc. is often labelled as but isnt really mental illness.

illness, abuse 

@TheWebRecluse @lj_writes I hope my tone is appropriate. I'm not very good a communicating within the character limit 🤐
I absolutely understand any amount of hate and disgust against ab-s-rs. I agree that they're evil -- even though I don't think it has anything to do with their mental illness and much more with their powers and privileges.

illness, abuse 

@Cap @TheWebRecluse Yeah, as I like to say, asshole isn't a mental illness. Marginalization doesn't equal morality, though, and mental illness can be one of the excuses or tools of abusers--though I agree with you they also have to be in a position of power in some other way to be able to leverage their mental illness.

illness, abuse 

@lj_writes @TheWebRecluse I have a bit of a problem with the idea of "weaponizing" one's marginalization: Ab-s-rs don't need to have a an illness to come up with some BS to distract from the ab-s-.

The power rush of violence has nothing to do with any inner distress. That's a lie to make abled people feel better about themselves.

Abled rich white cishet men are much more likely to get away with BS excuses and have much easier access to potential v-ct-ms than any other group.

illness, abuse 

@lj_writes @TheWebRecluse I'm not saying individual ab-s-rs don't make any (real or percieved) marginalization part of their narrative, though. These parts are just completely interchangeable and are equally likely to be (loosely) based on some truth or to be some fictitious BS. It's a story and the best thing you could do with it is completely ignore it.

illness, abuse 

@Cap @TheWebRecluse I completely agree that mental illness does not by itself cause people to be abusive. I dispute that mental illness has *nothing* to do with abuse, however. Mental illness is one of many circumstances that people can respond to in a wrongful way by turning to abusive beliefs. It doesn't help to "ignore" my father's mental illness when he does in fact use it against me.

illness, abuse 

@Cap @TheWebRecluse I'm not dealing with a hypothetical abuser who is using some other excuse, I'm dealing with *him*, specifically, and he *is* mentally ill. Ignoring parts of his reality does nothing to help me.

Mental illness does not make people evil, but it doesn't make people good, either. Some people with mental illness deliberately hurt people, just as some abled people do. People with mental illness are *people* like any other, not a sanctified class of good people.

illness, abuse 

@lj_writes @TheWebRecluse I'm sorry how this came off. I didn't mean you shouldn't worry about what he's doing to you. Ignoring him will not make him go away or anything.
I understand that not letting his BS into your head isn't really an option when you are still forced to interact with your ab-s-r. "the best thing" is rarely an option in survival situations.
I'm just saying that distressed people are worse at covering up but the behavior was probably already there.

illness, abuse 

@lj_writes @TheWebRecluse The problem I have with "weaponized marginalization" is that being disabled / of color / female / gay / etc. is not what gives a person hierarchal power over someone who is abled / white / male / straight. My trauma didn't come with any "perks" or privileges I didn't have before.
I'm not saying it turned me into a good person either. No perks at all. I'm still the same punk I ever was.

illness, abuse 

@Cap Thank you for your concern, but I am not in immediate survival mode with him--I am managing things by setting and keeping boundaries, and his anxiety is one of the factors I keep in mind when doing so. I'm not sure how you can assume I don't know my dad or that he must be lying about mental illness when you don't know either of us?

illness, abuse 

@lj_writes That's not remotely what I said, sorry.

I don't think I have to know that person to have an issue with harmful phrases like "leveraging mental illness" or the counter-factual claim that "plenty of mentally ill people choose to use other people as outlets and relief for their symptoms" -- bc that's just as discriminatory as, let's say, claiming that most Mexican immigrants are r-p-sts while using the phrase "invading our country".

illness, abuse 

@Cap I think I've explained enough about what I meant by those phrases in the course of this thread. Yes, sometimes mentally ill abusers leverage mental illness because abusers use any leverage they can. Yes, plenty of mentally ill people use others as relief because that's what abusers do, and mentally ill people, like abled people, can be abusers.

illness, abuse, rape mention 

@Cap Coming into a conversation @TheWebRecluse and I were having about our experiences with mentally ill abusers and trying to deny that what we experienced could even happen, and then saying it's the same thing as being prejudiced against Mexicans is.... surreal? It's like we were talking about our experiences with rapists who are Mexican and you're telling us that Mexicans can't be rapists and to say so makes us like Trump.

illness, abuse, rape mention 

@lj_writes @TheWebRecluse Btw, if talking about r-p-sts who happen to be Mexican would involve saying sth like "plenty of immigrant choose to use other people as outlets and relief for their social pressure" I'd say basically the same things I'm saying now.

illness, abuse, rape mention 

@Cap No, you just seemed really, really bothered by the idea that mentally ill people could use their illness as leverage in interpersonal abuse, while not denying that abusers use anything they can as leverage and that includes mental illness. Those two statements are the exact same thing and I don't see a counterargument. How is it stereotyping to point out that mentally ill people are people like anyone else? Lmao.

Immigration, marginalization, abuse 

@Cap Also yes, plenty of immigrants do in fact use others as outlets and relief for sociel pressure. Immigrant children have talked about this extensively, such as the pressure to succeed and conform and how their parents took out their frustrations and fears on them. They're not supposed to talk about the full reality of their own mistreatment now, which includes social pressures on immigrants?

Immigration, marginalization, abuse 

@lj_writes That logic implies that a. ab-s- needs a "reason" and b. white abled people have less reason to be ab-s-ve than disabled poc, therefore c. white abled people are less ab-s-ve.
That's untrue. Violence does not relieve stress. In fact, violent behavior makes people more aggressive. Feeling powerful on the other hand does not require any distress.
Tbh, the myth that ab-s-rs need to "vent" is kinda apologetic.

Immigration, marginalization, abuse 

@Cap Um no, the assumption that abuse is caused by distress is not inherent in the statement at all. That's entirely you reading into it. SOME people use their own distress an an excuse, but it's only an excuse because others respond non-abusively to similar stressors. On the same note, abusive coping mechanisms don't have to be successful, because again these stressors are an excuse.

Immigration, marginalization, abuse 

@Cap As you said, if it weren't a stressor it would be something else, which is why many abusive tactics and responses are universal across groups.

On the other hand, as I said before, people have to deal with real abusers and not hypothetical ones. A mentally ill immigrant abuser would sometimes be handled differently than one who is not. It doesn't help anyone to ignore that difference or stop talking about the way marginalization shapes abusive behavior.

Immigration, marginalization, abuse 

@lj_writes That's absolutely true.
I think that "talking about differences" is always a comparison... and when using comparative terms like "plenty" you're setting a demographic in a larger context.
"Leverage" can be used in a relative way, too, and that's how people would usually interpret that wording bc reversability of discrimination is just a thing dominant groups are constantly shoving into mainstream consciousness via pop-culture tropes.

Immigration, marginalization, abuse 

@Cap Are there other words you would suggest? Would "some" instead of "plenty" and "use" instead of "leverage" be better, for instance?

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illness, abuse 

@Cap And no, while a marginalization like mental illness does not give systemic advantages, abuse is personal as well as systemic and abusers use anything they can. See, for instance, an article on how social justice language can be used in abusive ways. everydayfeminism.com/2016/02/s Like privilege, marginalization is complex and many-sided. It is inaccurate and *dangerous* to think that marginalized people can't be abusive, or that there is anything an abuser cannot weaponize.

illness, abuse 

@lj_writes Let's get this straight: I have never said mentally ill people are somehow incapable of ab-s-ve behavior or made excuses for ab-s-. I don't know where you got this from.

The only thing I'm pointing out are harmful stereotypes and false generalizations.
And, well, I originally came in bc I liked what you said about racism. Unfortunately, the way you treat ableism is appearantly also just a matter of politeness, not ethics.

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Eldritch Café

Une instance se voulant accueillante pour les personnes queers, féministes et anarchistes ainsi que pour leurs sympathisant·e·s. Nous sommes principalement francophones, mais vous êtes les bienvenu·e·s quelle que soit votre langue.

A welcoming instance for queer, feminist and anarchist people as well as their sympathizers. We are mainly French-speaking people, but you are welcome whatever your language might be.