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Please, if you have a bot, make it post in unlisted rather than in public. There is so many bots posting in public now that the federated timeline is becoming unusable.
I don’t usually ask that, but can you boost this to spread awareness?

@Sylvhem Just to be sure, as my mind reads it with an unsure tone.

And also sorry for the inconvenience.

@Sylvhem Not only bots. I take issue with people having conversations on public timelines.

I think original posts should be made public, if wanted. Any comments on this post should be unlisted by default - unless manually changed to public. This would reduce noise in the federated timeline and improve discoverability for everyone.

@Jakobiner @Sylvhem That's a great idea! I didn't even think of that. I'll try to remember to set my replies to unlisted more often. Thank you.

@Mayana @Jakobiner @Sylvhem I had no idea replies could get on the public timeline! That's something to watch out for.

@ljwrites @Jakobiner @Sylvhem I think it depends on the software. Pleroma is definitely in general more fond of showing replies than Mastodon is. So, while I haven't seen replies on Federated here all that often, it's pretty likely that's different there. And while Mastodon is the cool kid in town, that doesn't mean we shouldn't at least sometimes try to adapt to our Pleromite pals. :)

@Mayana @ljwrites @Sylvhem Mastodon hides post replies? Goodness. I didn't know this.

I mean, it could also be implemented in Pleroma with a MRF. But it's a bit strange for Mastodon to post publicly, then hide the posts in the public feed.

I guess it's something to think on.

@Jakobiner @Sylvhem @ljwrites Yeah. In general Mastodon hides most replies. Even in the Home TL, it only showes replies if you follow both the person that is replying and the person they're replying to. And there are no replies at all on Local.
Until you pointed it out, I never thought about it as weird at all. If anything, it's one of the reasons I prefer Masto.
Anyway, I went ahead and sent my default posting privacy to Unlisted. I reply far more often than I post original toots, so I'll need to remember to switch it up far less often this way.

@Jakobiner @Sylvhem @Mayana I 100% agree. I've set new toots to be public, and replies to be unlisted. It can always be changed on a case-by-case basis anyway, but I struggle to come up with a situation in which you'd need replies to be *that* visible.

@TheFake_VIP @Jakobiner @Sylvhem Wait, there is a reply-specific setting somewhere? Where? I can only find a general one that applies to everything, new toots and replies alike.

@Mayana @Jakobiner @Sylvhem It might be specific to the @tootapp iOS app. Pretty sure I've seen it in #Tusky as well, honestly can't remember.

@Jakobiner @Sylvhem I personally have unlisted always set as default post visibility and I switch to public pretty much only if I use tags that I want folks to be able to find my posts by

@Jakobiner This brings up a number of additional questions and issues.

I default all my toots to "unlisted" (a partial compromise to my CW aversion). Scope may be individually toggled broader or narrower.
Hashtags aren't searchable unless toots are public. I find this a misfeature, but will toggle scope to global when including hashtags meant to be searched.
People will occasionally toot personal matters followers-only. Given my followers list all but certainly doesn't match theirs, any reply other than a DM strikes me as ill-advised. (Stepping in on such discusions should usually be with extreme sensitivity regardless.)
Thread scopes generally should be no broader than the parent or any subsequent upstream toot. Note that the "public" vs. "unlisted" distinction isn't one of scope, strictly, but of amplification. And searchability.
"Followers only" especially seems ill-advised. Unless a profile is locked, this is not directly controlled by author, different users' scopes effectively never intersect, and determining just what scope is is effectively impossible.

The design and consequences strike me as a bit of a mess.

And as noted earlier, the Federated stream usually has limited utility.

@Sylvhem

@dredmorbius I'm not a hashtag user myself, so I completely overlooked this.

I just tried searching a hashtag on an unlisted post from someone who I am not following, and it came up on the search results. Of course, I am using Pleroma. So this may be a Mastodon issue?

> "Thread scopes generally should be no broader than the parent or any subsequent upstream toot."

Pleroma also has an instance-wide setting to automatically copy the scope of the post that is being replied to, but this doesn't really solve the other issues.

This does not solve the problem you listed about replying to "follower's only" posts or my problem about public replies (i.e. with this setting, replying to a follower's only post sets your post also as follower's only - and responding to a public post also sets your post as public, instead of unlisted).

> "The design and consequences strike me as a bit of a mess."
Yeah, I agree. It feels like there's a misunderstanding/non-consensus as to the purpose of the "unlisted" and "public" amplification, and how interacting with a follower's only post should work - or a different vision of how they should be treated.

So, I think we can agree on the following(?):
Responding to a public post -> auto-set reply to unlisted (not strict)
Responding to an unlisted post -> auto-set reply to unlisted (not strict)
Responding to a follower's only post -> auto-set reply to DM (strict)
Responding to a DM -> auto-set reply to DM (strict)

These three changes would make smaller scopes more understandable, while still allowing people to amplify their public/unlisted posts.

@Jakobiner On scope; A response to a followers-only post should inherit the original author's followers specification, Not your own, as its widest possible scope.

A DM would be acceptable but not required.

From the perspective of respondants to Followers Only threads, the scope should not be their own followers.

The problem with FO as it now stands, to my understanding, is that any discussion becomes fragmented through the intersection of dissimmilar followers scopes of respondents. To the extent profiles are named, content quoted, or context leaked, the intent of the original author is not respected.

Otherwise, yes.

@Jakobiner Hashtag search is ... inconsistent, though I find for sufficiently old content unlisted toots don't appear.

#UnlistedHashtag

... for testing.

@Jakobiner ... and FYI for me the above toot does not appear when I click on the hashtag ref in it.

@dredmorbius interesting. In Pleroma, clicking the Hyperlink ref doesn’t find the post... but going into the search finds the post. So yeah... inconsistent.

And yeah, the FO scope would make more sense, with the way you describe. I agree.

@Jakobiner Search seems to look at recently-cached/accessed data. Hashtag search does not.

@Sylvhem Additionally: Please, if you have a bot, just ... please move it to botsin.space.
Because there is no "Hide posts from bots" button. And I try to mute them as I go, and share my list of muted bots with others sometimes, but gah, there's just SO MANY! With botsin.space, at least I can hide the entire instance and get some peace.
And most importantly: Ask yourself if the Fedi needs your bot at all. No offense, but most likely, it does not. No, not even news bots. That's not what people come to the Fedi for.

@Sylvhem I have myself a bot and declared as such (in account parameters) : by default, all posts are unlisted. I was considering this as a feature of Mastodon but after all it's probably played at the instance level 🤔

@Sylvhem mmmm I think I should make an MRF that automatically forces bot posts to be unlisted
@feld how about an MRF to drop reply posts from the public timeline? Are there any side effects that would happen?
@Jakobiner MRF isn't a timeline filter, it's an activity filter which is applied when someone creates a new post or a post is federated to your instance -- think of it like a firewall, and you're rewriting packets. If the MRF is going to change scope, it's permanently modifying the post.

It won't affect any old posts before the MRF was activated :(

Can't filter out replies this way.
@feld Ahh, thanks for the explanation.

As long as the scope of new reply posts are changed (permanently), I think that would be good enough, no? That would have the effect of “filtering” them from the public timeline?

Or am I not understanding something correctly?
@Jakobiner it would break threads entirely. you'd never be able to see who the post is replying to, because we'd have stripped that metadata from the post.
@feld damn. Ok. Thanks anyway though, for your input!
@Jakobiner we will solve it! it's just that there are a few big tasks we have to complete to eliminate the performance penalty of the filter

@Sylvhem Agreed. This would solve a problem that I currently solve by muting the overwhelming majority of bots. I don't want to have to do that but they just flood the timeline.

@Sylvhem I doubt any number of bots turning their posts to unlisted will make the federated timeline actually usable, but I've double checked all of my bots and two of them weren't posting unlisted before, which is now fixed.

@Sylvhem @Mayana domain blocking botsin.space was the only real solution for me

@warriorstar @Sylvhem Yeah, but that's the thing ... it doesn't work either. There's just so many bots elsewhere. There's tons on societal.co, for example, to the point where I'm unsure if I should just block the entire damn instance, even though that would punish several innocent users. I probably won't do that, but damn is it annoying.

@Sylvhem Also consider reporting such bots suggesting they be silenced by the local mod (effectively making all that bots public posts unlisted on the local instance),

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Eldritch Café

Une instance se voulant accueillante pour les personnes queers, féministes et anarchistes ainsi que pour leurs sympathisant·e·s. Nous sommes principalement francophones, mais vous êtes les bienvenu·e·s quelle que soit votre langue.

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