Periodic reminder: you don't own your domain names -- you're just renting them from ICANN. Therefore, if you rely upon DNS, you don't fully control your stack.

· tootstream · 6 · 10 · 16

@enkiv2 weirds me out how many tools /can't/ handle IPs, too, even among fairly nerdy tools.

@emsenn @enkiv2
It sort of makes sense if they're written in the era before the DNS system proper existed, when every site maintained its own /etc/hosts -- IPs are liable to change but you could keep names consistent. And then for a while everybody assumed DNS was cheap enough that everybody would keep their names in perpetuity (100% not true).

@enkiv2 I mean, yes, but - you don't own your connection from your ISP either, and most people don't own their own netblock (Though I have a couple of friends jealously hoarding their personal class Cs even though nobody will route them anymore :)

How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?

@enkiv2 @feoh Life is an interaction between us and the world. Nothing is permanent and nothing is ours forever. This is not limited to IT or business.

You can either let go of the need for full control or end up holed up in your own private compound at war with the world.

This is the slippery slope to the dark side.

@jollymnemonic @enkiv2 @feoh
Sure, but in this instance, the infrastructure is state-supported big capital with a wide variety of motivations to extract rent and/or demand content changes. The vulnerability here isn't 'other people' but 'arbitrary hierarchy' -- and we are at the bottom, with no potential for advancement.

@jollymnemonic @enkiv2 @feoh There's a difference between walling off from other equals you could form interactions that benefit everyone involved and walling off from domineering monopolies that make money off of surveillance and centralization. One of these hurts everyone involved and one is self defense

@jollymnemonic @enkiv2 @feoh If I didn't live in a kind of society where hierarchical institutions wield unfathomable power over us and outright abuse enjoys widespread enthusiastic support, I would be a completely open book instead of being more defensive.

That society doesn't exist yet

@forAll52 @jollymnemonic @enkiv2 Sure, I get it, and that's laudable. I guess what I was somewhat snarkily (and for that I sincerely apologize) poking at was that at some point the giant playground we all inhabit is in fact run by giant monopolies, and until we create the grand unified people's internet that's free of BigCorps, there is exactly NO way to get away from that. You can avoid ICANN by pretending DNS doesn't exist, but what's the point when your ISP can just turn you off?

@forAll52 @jollymnemonic @enkiv2 See now THIS is my point! If we're gonna go down the rabbit hole, let's do it right, shall we? There are several efforts out there that overlay an indie network on top of the internet that also extends out to multiple local mesh(es) with the idea that if the tubes were ever shut down, this thing could keep rolling and grow through sneakernet and the like. Yggdrasil is one example. You can see others here: - why not invest effort in one of them?

@feoh @jollymnemonic @enkiv2 you can still do things to mitigate the risk It's worth putting in the effort, if only because it makes their jobs slightly harder

@enkiv2 You could always run your own local DNS server. There are various simple implementations out there to choose from, or you could federate /etc/hosts.

@enkiv2 insert an insanity wolf meme involving writing spyware that you attempt to deploy to the world's computers that adds an alternate DNS root under your control

(this actually happened)

This bugs me all the time. Is there a viable alternative?

@ajroach42 @enkiv2
Maintain your own /etc/hosts? Switch to DHT for static whenever possible? Depends on what you're doing. For the web & other document delivery systems, you don't care what host you connect to so long as the data is right. For ssh you care deeply about the host & the data is mutable.

@enkiv2 @ajroach42 There's OpenNIC. There is also folks (like n-o-d-e) who're publishing to IPFS.

@enkiv2 @ajroach42 i used to have a script that would put together a hosts file for me

not sure what happened to that

out of interest, is it only security benefits gained from hosts, or is there a noticeable speed boost too?

@enkiv2 periodic reminder: you don't own your ip addresses, you're renting them from whoever your hosting provider is, who is renting them from their RIR, who is technically renting them from ICANN.

you can do the same with ASNs, too.

@enkiv2 anyway the internet is both very centralized and very decentralized, which means you rely and depend on a myriad of actors to make it work. there's no changing this, and I'd argue there's no reason to change this.

It's one thing to rely on people, & another thing to be at the mercy of institutions.

Host-oriented addressing creates an unnecessary dependency on the persistence of hosts, & ought to be avoided for addressing data, because such persistence is not reliable & can be made very expensive.

Well, it's true. We oughtnt to use IPs for permanent addressing for the same reason as DNS.

We already have mature solutions for this: content addressing, dhts, public key based addressing for accessing hosts. The underlying IPs can change as much as they like, and nobody needs to register names.

Basically: it's a solved problem, & we just need to use the solutions.

@enkiv2 like always, the technical problems don't matter and are easy to figure out. the social "problems" (I don't consider them a problem in that case, but okay) are not, and in this case will never be solved

The social problem here is fear of incompatibility among technical decision-makers. It dissolves as soon as we dare to break compatibility in a big way.

At that point, whatever we decided becomes the new de facto standard that later folks are afraid to break.

@enkiv2 at that point whatever you decided becomes a very small island next to the existing internet the same way that masto is a very small island next to existing social networks (for example, but it'd be way smaller)

@wxcafe @enkiv2
And, that's how every great continent begins. Whether or not the island becomes a continent is both down to luck and Not My Problem -- I'd rather live on a good island than a shitty continent.


I think they are yours unless you violate the contact or the law. For example IP lawyers dominate this space.

However I understand if this feels restrictive. I also am investigating alternatives

Sign in to participate in the conversation
Eldritch Café

Une instance se voulant accueillante pour les personnes queers, féministes et anarchistes ainsi que pour leurs sympathisant·e·s. Nous sommes principalement francophones, mais vous êtes les bienvenu·e·s quelle que soit votre langue.

A welcoming instance for queer, feminist and anarchist people as well as their sympathizers. We are mainly French-speaking people, but you are welcome whatever your language might be.