they could just make electron work well

has anyone thought of this

@be idk i've never implemented a rendering engine

probably. i bet if you implemented a rendering engine from scratch and only supported the latest standards it would be.

@marie_joseph The problem is nobody has the resources to do anything remotely like that besides Google.

@marie_joseph And it's in Google's interest to keep expanding the scope of the web to eat all of computing so that nobody else could make a modern web browser.

@be this is why even software engineers need class consciousness

@marie_joseph @be let's remember that until relatively recently Chrome, which is based on Chromium (as is Brave, Edge, and many other browses) was, like Safari, built on Webkit, which was, in turn, a fork of the highly functional, community (not corporate) developed KHTML (which was originally developed for KDE's Konqueror browser)... It's only in the last couple years they've moved to Blink. So it seems there's precedent for doing it with quite miniscule backing...

@marie_joseph @be and, it appears that even Chromium's current Blink rendering engine is a fork of Webkit, meaning it probably shares a lot of code with KHTML...

@marie_joseph @be KHTML is arguably the thing which broke Microsoft's toxic attempt to control the Web. Ironic that they've now given up on their own rendering engine (Trident - as I suggested they do around 2009), and adopted a KHTML derivative, too.

KHTML, and the community behind it, is a largely unsung hero... and one of the greatest (most influential) FOSS projects ever.


@lightweight @be I was wondering about Webkit. I primarily use Webkit browsers (Luakit on general purpose computers, Epiphany on my phone), but I didn't know its full history. Do you think it could have a shot at breaking the back of Chromium hegemony? And if so, what would that path look like?

@marie_joseph @be Chromium is already based on a fork of Webkit called Blink... The only other rendering engine of note is Mozilla's Gecko, which is pretty old now. The great hope is/was Servo, which was meant to replace Gecko, and I believe it was what the Rust language was developed to implement - - but it hasn't been finished...

@lightweight @be based on references to Servo here it sounds like Servo is dead or at least on the back burner in favor of modernizing Gecko

@marie_joseph @be yes, it's too bad. Mozilla's lack of independence from Google (who mostly fund it) seems like a very unfortunate situation... It seems like their patrons might influence their strategic decision making... :(

@be @marie_joseph yes. I personally think gov'ts should be collaboratively funding FOSS development because it now forms critical infrastructure (including competing implementations of key open standards)... that's my pipedream (that policy-makers would "get" this stuff).

@lightweight @be I only ever hear this idea (government funding) from folks on Aotearoa, but until we abolish states I think it's a good one

@lightweight @marie_joseph As far as I understand, it would take a paradigm shift not just to get government funding for FOSS, but to get funders to understand that keeping software working requires maintenance work which requires continual funding, not one-off grants.

@be @marie_joseph yes, which is why we (as a set of societies) can't have nice things. Our leaders don't know stuff. So we just have to make them understand it. I find that the threat of embarrassment works quite well to motivate politicians (well, it *did* up until Trump, but perhaps it still does outside the US).

@be @marie_joseph we have to have faith that people can change for the better, right? If not, there's not much point in anything really :)

@be @marie_joseph Waldo's message is pretty hard to argue with: He *seems* to have the ear of gov't in the US... but, having led the horse to water... will it drink?

@be @marie_joseph again, it's a matter of finding suitable (dis)incentives. :)

@be @marie_joseph we had some success doing it here in NZ. We got software patents banned - see (I built the site originally, but no it's hosted by

@be @marie_joseph it did involve us finding out about a major "indiscretion" (related to the patents issue) by an NZ Minister and some "Frightful Five" lobbyists/cronies and bringing evidence of it to light in Parliament, but we achieved our goal.

@lightweight @marie_joseph This guy has some interesting ideas...
"I am here to tell you that you can effect more positive change as a government vendor than as a helpful non-profit...
We need people whose goal isn’t an IPO and fabulous wealth, but instead to earn a nice living for themselves and everybody who works for them while making their country better by creating better technology for government."

@lightweight @marie_joseph Interesting how we have gotten here from a post about how Electron sucks... I hope governments don't build applications with Electron.

@lightweight @marie_joseph @be I remember using Konqueror and Galeon way back around 2001. There were a lot more browser options back then. I’m wish there were other Gecko derivatives, but even Eich favoured going the Chromium route when he left Mozilla and started Brave. I’ve heard Gecko is difficult to embed, but am not sure if that’s true.

I do wonder about the future of Firefox. There are a lot of people who still want to support it, but don’t agree with what Mozilla has become over the past decade.

I think you may have hit on something … the cultures of Mozilla and Google are growing closer, and in many ways are already indistinguishable.

@lightweight @marie_joseph Blink was forked from WebCore in 2013, that was before HTML5 was even finalized.
Since then both engine have gone on fairly different roads and even through you can still see some similarities in the code, IMHO they should be considered different engines at this point.
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Eldritch Café

Une instance se voulant accueillante pour les personnes queers, féministes et anarchistes ainsi que pour leurs sympathisant·e·s. Nous sommes principalement francophones, mais vous êtes les bienvenu·e·s quelle que soit votre langue.

A welcoming instance for queer, feminist and anarchist people as well as their sympathizers. We are mainly French-speaking people, but you are welcome whatever your language might be.